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Dropzone Commander 2nd Edition

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BlackLegion

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Re: Dropzone Commander 2nd Edition

PostFri Sep 08, 2017 2:21 pm

This pretty much nerfs turn 1 demo :) No more 9 unit blobs of Katanas reducing home objective buildings to rubble in turn 1 :D actually a double nerf to Katanas because they don't have Demolisher.
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Egge

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Re: Dropzone Commander 2nd Edition

PostFri Sep 08, 2017 2:26 pm

The vast majority of the rule changes are perfect fit for DZC1. But the DNS and open transports are changing the fundamentals to the game very much so those changes act very different. Both could be command cards instead (allocate new transport and one model may disembark and shoot against ground targets).
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Suzume

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Re: Dropzone Commander 2nd Edition

PostFri Sep 08, 2017 2:59 pm

I honestly don't mind open transports.

Yes, you can't snipe a single transport anymore... but if you get an AA bubble you can still purge the sky of transports around the area you want to deny access.

That was always an issue new players griped about, and it never made a ton of sense (apart from UCM Condors with their specific grab mounts).

DnS I have many more issues with, as it is 'fixing' a problem I don't see needing to be fixed, given the other changes make transports way better already.

If I had to pick one of those two to keep, I would keep open transports without hesitation.
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Gauntlet

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Re: Dropzone Commander 2nd Edition

PostFri Sep 08, 2017 7:26 pm

Agreed... The overall effect of both could be that armies need a lot more AA, and as a result DnS becomes needed to get more shooting out of your smaller quantity of AT.

But that is super hypothetical. Perhaps dropships need to be cheaper and even easier to shoot down... Making today's amount of AT and AA still appropriate.

Perhaps instead of stranding units, you should be trying to kill those units or otherwise bogging them down in CQB.

So yeah... I don't see open transports as terribly upsetting...
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Gonefishing

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Re: Dropzone Commander 2nd Edition

PostFri Sep 08, 2017 7:28 pm

I also like the fact they are making drive on more difficult, to an extent - but certainly I can see this is probably why they have added open transports and DNS to the game. If your making drive on more restrictive they had to do something to make transports more varied in game such as DNS (or increasing their offensive capability) or substantially drop their points cost. The reason I say this is there are certain units that currently it makes no sense to fly on (every army has them), once they drop have 0 need of a transport (they don't move / or they are already mobile), but in 2nd edition you are going to have to buy a transport for them to get them on the table in a timely fashion, at least that transport remains usable afterwards.

And even that on its own, probably isn't enough - hence DNS - because while open transports gives Transports utility, DNS actually gives them threat. I have played entire battles where my Neptune's remained entirely intact, not because of their amazing armour - but because my opponent saw no point in shooting at them (including one memorable game where a Neptune spent 4 Turns hovering 6" in front of a Panther firing into it and doing no damage - my opponent did not shoot it because he was after my Athena's and it was 0 threat to him). DNS will change things like that because, because that Neptune may now actually be carrying units that can do something, and what's more - actually rely on that Transport to get them round the table.

Without DNS I can kind of see that there would be less point in shooting transports (more of them, and you cant strand units so easily anymore), with it your going to have far more chance to actually shoot at Transports that are actually carrying units, and also gaining value in actually having a defensive AA bubble to protect yourself (I actually think AA is going to be far more important that it is now in game terms).

So putting those changes together: Drive on reserve increases the need for transports / open transports mean that this is an ok option even for those units that don't require the transport they now have to buy / DNS actually makes these transports more threatening and gives them greater game utility (rather than just being left with a table full of transports bumping around doing nothing) / Open Transports and DNS combined make AA more important in terms of countering your opponent. That all makes sense to me anyway - I think the rules (from the sound of things) are going to work in conjuction, remove part of that chain and you just end up with a swarm of Uber Drivers trying to find a fare.

(And hopefully all this will mean less event's like the one I saw in one of the video battle reports the otherday [even if it did have me in stiches], that of a celebrating PHR player shouting "Woohoo, a Neptune actually did something" when it most unusually killed a tank :lol: . Because they now might be a whole lot more useful!).
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stormbringer

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Re: Dropzone Commander 2nd Edition

PostFri Sep 08, 2017 8:45 pm

Gonefishing wrote: I have played entire battles where my Neptune's remained entirely intact, not because of their amazing armour - but because my opponent saw no point in shooting at them (including one memorable game where a Neptune spent 4 Turns hovering 6" in front of a Panther firing into it and doing no damage - my opponent did not shoot it because he was after my Athena's and it was 0 threat to him). DNS will change things like that because, because that Neptune may now actually be carrying units that can do something, and what's more - actually rely on that Transport to get them round the table.


Sigh, I remember the days when my Panther reaction fired on 5s - shot down 2 Athenas that battle - didn't matter that I lost!

But seriously, with DnS, the Panther will need to be reaction firing on 5s again in 2nd and I don't think many shaltari generals would mind having infinite range chopped back to balance that out.
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Phototoxin

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Re: Dropzone Commander 2nd Edition

PostFri Sep 08, 2017 9:55 pm

Is there a summary of proposed changes? Somewhere, sorry 2 year hitatus just broken..
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Sebageddon

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Re: Dropzone Commander 2nd Edition

PostFri Sep 08, 2017 10:09 pm

Hey guys so i've had a quick look through this and my feeling is that the majority of the rules seem fine except for skimmers always skimming and DnS. I think DnS needs a downside if its a thing. Imagine a hades doing it (not very fluffy)? +2 is not really a downside, I do think its cool for certain units to be given a DnS rule.

How will new FM affect hell hogs?
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Gonefishing

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Re: Dropzone Commander 2nd Edition

PostFri Sep 08, 2017 11:13 pm

stormbringer wrote:But seriously, with DnS, the Panther will need to be reaction firing on 5s again in 2nd and I don't think many shaltari generals would mind having infinite range chopped back to balance that out.


It will be an interesting one, on the one hand with transports now flying at 3" means the Panther will be more easy to hide from, on the other hand I dont know what assumed height the attack runs come in at, and as fast movers will be worth extra vp and your panther shot down 2 of them on 5's... :lol: :twisted:

Might be 5's /infinite but E7 rather than 8? - as I dont see Hawk dropping the infinite range, thats its usp.
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killionaire

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Re: Dropzone Commander 2nd Edition

PostSat Sep 09, 2017 5:38 am

Sebageddon wrote:Hey guys so i've had a quick look through this and my feeling is that the majority of the rules seem fine except for skimmers always skimming and DnS. I think DnS needs a downside if its a thing. Imagine a hades doing it (not very fluffy)? +2 is not really a downside, I do think its cool for certain units to be given a DnS rule.

How will new FM affect hell hogs?


+2 is absolutely a downside. It's a little more than half firepower approx when firing a normally 2+ weapon by making it a 4+. And if you're shooting at a skimmer, it's even worse: Instead of half firepower, it's 1/3rds firepower.

Even if you 'get the drop' on something using half or a third firepower, what's left is going to crush your guys because they weren't firing at a penalty.

Skimmers always skimmed anyway in DZC except when disembarking. If that needs to be kept, just leave a rule that they don't get the bonus if they disembarked. But this imaginary 'my guys move 6 inches but actually moved zero' is actually incredibly stupid.
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