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Shaltari failing fortitude test

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Gonefishing

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Shaltari failing fortitude test

PostSun Jul 30, 2017 1:47 am

Hi all,

Quick question that came up from a game today, if Shaltari troops fail their fortitude test in CQB and abandon the building can they...

A. Embark directly into a gate (from what I have seen elsewhere, this would only be possible if the gate had been activated with that battlegroup originally, and had not already acted?)

B. If that happened, and they could access the transport, could they jump through the gate and then immediately disembark through another gate and embark into a different building elsewhere on the table as part of the fallback
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J.D. Welch

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Re: Shaltari failing fortitude test

PostSun Jul 30, 2017 4:41 am

Gonefishing wrote:Hi all,

Quick question that came up from a game today, if Shaltari troops fail their fortitude test in CQB and abandon the building can they...

A. Embark directly into a gate (from what I have seen elsewhere, this would only be possible if the gate had been activated with that battlegroup originally, and had not already acted?)

I believe you are correct here.

Gonefishing wrote:B. If that happened, and they could access the transport, could they jump through the gate and then immediately disembark through another gate and embark into a different building elsewhere on the table as part of the fallback

I'm not sure, since technically at the end of CQB they're done doing everything, so I don't think they could embark into another structure. It's like an Immortals squad with a Juno: If the Juno is within 1" of the building, the squad can get in after failing a Fortitude test, but the Juno would have had to activate before the CQB took place, so the Juno couldn't move, but the Squad would still be inside of it.
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SwordOfJustice

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Re: Shaltari failing fortitude test

PostSun Jul 30, 2017 11:04 am

That's how I understand it too.
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stormbringer

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Re: Shaltari failing fortitude test

PostTue Aug 01, 2017 4:32 pm

Frustratingly (there’s a wager on it!), I think I mostly have to agree with Gonefishing; As the point about activations never entered my mind during the game in question!

Having read the rules, I think that activation of the adjoining shaltari gate is implied by the falling back rules- as it is for any other race (NB shaltari gate rules say for “dematerialise” also read “embark”). And, as for any other race, the gate (or transport) must not have already activated…….

…..which will become a much more discussed point in 2nd edition if all races then have independent transports (because currently it is not possible for the attached transports of other races to have already activated).

So it seems there is no disagreement about the falling back shaltari unit dematerialising through a nearby gate (within 1” of 1st building) which has not already activated.

Regarding the second point, I think it is possible to materialise directly into another building (2nd gate within 1” of 2nd building) because the shaltari rules allow any “dematerialised units to materialise through an activated gate”; but there is some conditionality with this. Firstly, though, I think there is already some precedent in the rules which allow any falling back unit to leave one structure and immediately enter an adjoining structure….

The conditionality for using the second gate to enter another building is again whether this gate has already been activated or not; whether 2nd gate is within 1” of target building (falling back troops cannot move) AND whether the shaltari player declares this 2nd gate is being activated with the subject battlegroup. Which, of course, would be impossible if the shaltari infantry were not the building occupier (since CQB only activates with the occupier’s battlegroup).

When shaltari activate a battlegroup they declare which gates are activated with that group. Therefore, whilst activation of the 1st gate can be implied instead of declared (as with all other races) the second gate activation cannot be implied and so would need a prior declaration by the shaltari player. Which is not a great gamble (you assume all of the following happens:- your troops lose CQB, they don’t all die and then they fail a 3+ fortitude test!), but in some game situations it may be a gamble worth taking.

Anyway, that’s my 2 pennths / 2 cents worth on it! Like I say, this will be something Hawk will need to smooth out for 2nd edition, because it seems it could become a more common question for all races.
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Egge

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Re: Shaltari failing fortitude test

PostTue Aug 01, 2017 8:31 pm

Actually I hope this will be resolved in the future. I think can should change a bit.
1. Assigning squads should be in the beginning of the turn. Not when the occupier activates. The assigned squads can change next turn.
2. Only the units in the cqb activates at the same time in the building. So any non assigned squads activate as normal together with their normal battlegroup.
3. Cqb is fought in the beginning of the occupiers activation. Not in the end. Just after searching after objectives.
4. Both players assign transports that will be able to activate at the same time as the infantry in the cqb. If a transport is not activated at this stage it activates at the same time as it's normal battlegroup.
5. After the cqb you activate the transports so now they can pick up any unit that jumped out.
6. Any shared transport and second infantry not in the cqb are not activated at the same time as it's sister squad that is in the cqb. It activates during its battlegroups activation. The player may choose if their transport should activate together with the squad in cqb or the squad not in cqb.

This should clear up a bit.
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Re: Shaltari failing fortitude test

PostTue Aug 01, 2017 10:26 pm

At least you know I wont cash the cheque Storm ;)

While the above works, I had time to look at the rules more closely tonight and I think point 2 can be ruled out more simply because DZC is a permissive rule set and it does not say you can.

CQB happens at the end of the BG's turn, after fighting a CQB neither the occupier or aggressor can do anything else (even if the Aggressors BG has not activate yet the rulebook states they can not complete any other actions that turn.)

Step 5 of the CQB action is Morale:

It states that if a fortitude test is failed:

then the remains of the squad must immediately vacate the building, either by transferring to a vacant structure, embarking directly into transports (see Transports) or by abandoning the structure. The Squad must do nothing more this turn, and if it embarks into transports , the transports may not move after it does so.

Embarking and disembarking are different actions, and the rule only states that the units can embark into a transport (then very specifically says they can do nothing else this turn). The rules above cover step 5 of the CQB. Step 7 (just noticed the book leaves out step 6!) is the evaluation - at which point CQB ends, and so does the Battle Group Activation. Nothing in that section say the units can disembark from the Transport, it just says they use the rules for embarking as per the transport rules.

Nor do the Transport rules state that embarking / disembarking are the same action, they are presented as two different actions Embarking (as permitted in step 5 of the CQB rules), and Disembarking (which isn't).

The Gate rules just state that Materialise and Dematerialise are equivalent to Disembark / Embark. It can be argued that the troops can materialise into an unactivated gate, but I cant see anything that would also let them disembark/dematerialise in contradiction of step 5 of the CQB. The only overwrite to that I could see would be if Shaltari had to disembark whenever they embarked, but they do not - they can be held off the table till you choose to bring them in again, and I think that's what happens with Shaltari Troops who run away, they embark (as per the rules in step 5) and that's it. Otherwise they would be able to run away and immediately be able to jump into another building, instantly count as the occupier and be searching next turn - possibly entirely outside of their actual activation (pretty good for a unit that was running away in panic a few seconds ago!) - It would mean there would be no downside to losing the CQB (loosing could even be a significant advantage!).
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J.D. Welch

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Re: Shaltari failing fortitude test

PostWed Aug 02, 2017 6:40 am

Correct, sir!
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