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New Experimental Rules are up!

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J.D. Welch

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Re: New Experimental Rules are up!

PostTue Mar 21, 2017 4:16 am

I honestly don't see what the big deal is giving the NY Launch(7). It's not competing for a slot with the Platinum, and it should generally be understood that you can't compare points costs across different factions, as it's 1) not that simple, and 2) flat out apples and oranges. There are other factors involved in determining the points cost of one ship in one faction, and all aspects need to be considered, and even then it's not apples to apples simple.

You can't correspondingly up the Platinum's Launch to 8, since you then can't take a full compliment of it and two Basalts because that would exceed the Clash Launch cap. Along those lines, you can only take two Seattles with a NY at Launch(7), since at Launch(6) you could take three Seattles, which means the Launch(7) buff to the NY caps the UCM to the same level as Shaltari in terms of the numbers of capital ships capable of launching Strije Craft. I don't know whether it would be considered "good" or "bad" to drop the NY to Launch (6) and therefore allow UCM to take it and three Seattles for a max Launch(15) capacity, which matches Shaltari. So, it seems to me that Launch(7) is a kind of intentional limiter to inhibit UCM from getting anything higher than Launch (13), unless a whopping five Seattles were taken. (Just sorta thinking out loud here...)

To reiterate, these aren't the last adjustments we will see overall (torpedoes still need to be addressed, as do a few other things), and these changes aren't cast in stone yet -- Hawk are monitoring this forum, and registering everyone's opinions, so the NY could still end up with Launch(6), especially if torps get a buff. But as has been noted, any buff to torpedoes means a buff to all three factions who have them; I don't expect Hawk to single out UCM torpedoes with a special rule, given their stated desire not to inflate the ruleset with even more special rules. On the other hand, while it could be said that "a torpedo is a torpedo is a torpedo", not all Bombers are created equal, so there is a precedence for having different profiles/stats for torps, too (beyond Scourge's Corruptor rule).

But the argument that the NY "steps on the toes of the Platinum" just smacks of faction chauvinism to me, and a bit of throwing a tantrum in the pram that the other guy's toy "is the same" as Shaltari's. It just doesn't feel like a valid argument as to why the NY shouldn't get Launch(7); its not like it got Particle, or Scald, which are faction-specific traits (currently). Dave may have thought that Launch(7) should be the cutoff for "Supercarrier" status in December at the BoW Bootcamp, but these proposed rules changes come straight from Dave (with consultation with Andy), and the very fact that any changes are being proposed proves that he's willing to change his stated stance on anything for the benefit of the game overall, a measure of which is whether or not any given unit ever hits the table, to the end that all units are seen ultimately.

To that point, why aren't people taking more Platinums? All I ever hear of us Diamonds. Maybe the Platinum needs some help, too?
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Re: New Experimental Rules are up!

PostTue Mar 21, 2017 4:23 am

I think Torpedoes are taken into account for Launch Assets, so the NY is actually Launch (8) in the experimental rules.

Even if it's dropped to 6 Fighters/Bombers, it's still Launch (7) so at best you still can only take two Seattles.

One side note, doesn't the Platinum also have a Gate value, allowing it to drop troops? That's one additional advantage it has over the New York.
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Re: New Experimental Rules are up!

PostTue Mar 21, 2017 4:24 am

J.D. Welch wrote:To that point, why aren't people taking more Platinums? All I ever hear of us Diamonds. Maybe the Platinum needs some help, too?


Well, see, they just don't have the points for a Platinum after taking 76 corvettes.....

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J.D. Welch

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Re: New Experimental Rules are up!

PostTue Mar 21, 2017 4:43 am

Nobody wrote:I think Torpedoes are taken into account for Launch Assets, so the NY is actually Launch (8) in the experimental rules.

Even if it's dropped to 6 Fighters/Bombers, it's still Launch (7) so at best you still can only take two Seattles.

Thank you for pointing that out -- you're right, I was getting my terminology mixed up. The Experimental Rules say "Increase Fighters and Bombers Load to 7." My bad. Ignore all that nonsense about max Seattles, you can only take two with a NY whether it's 7 or 6 F&B's.

That's actually a bit of a nerf to UCM listbuilding capabilities, since you could take three Seattles with a New York by the book's stats...

Nobody wrote:On side note, doesn't the Platinum also have a Gate value, allowing it to drop troops? That's one additional advantage it has over the New York.

True, and that's important.
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Re: New Experimental Rules are up!

PostTue Mar 21, 2017 5:04 am

Fluff arguments are completely moot and the only leading principle should be gameplay balance within the faction design.
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Re: New Experimental Rules are up!

PostTue Mar 21, 2017 5:16 am

J.D. Welch wrote:-snip-


Very good points all around, and it's probably just me getting up in arms over something that really shouldn't be that much of an issue, but there is two things I do want to bring up.

Firstly, your post (and others) made me realize that the increase to the New York is actually somewhat of a nerf as much as it is a buff; as it were, with 5 assets (assets being fighters and bombers) and 1 torpedo, the New york and three Seattle/Johan would perfectly fit into the maximum launch cap for a clash fleet. With the buff of the New York to 7 (or 6) assets, and a consequent total of 8 (7) launch, the UCM can now take a total of 1 (2) less assets overall, if they're going for asset spam. Not that big of a deal, considering how marginal UCM assets are compared to things like PHR assets, but it is something.

Secondly, I wouldn't call giving the UCM torpedos a higher damage value a "special rule", and I'd think that launch assets faction wide (fighters, bombers, and torpedoes) could do with a bit more differentiation than simply thrust values. For me, changing the New York's asset value to 7 draws attention away from torpedoes, which is something that does need to be fixed (although the evasion change does help). There's already precedent with the Scourge for having unique torpedoes, and I'd honestly say that the UCM's only equivalent of a super weapon (on similar scale with the DMC and Particle Triad) deserves more attention than their carrier capacity, not to mention the Scourge's torpedoes.

However, I am going to disagree that you "can't compare prices across factions"; you can, at least when looking at general statistics and damage output, and it's important to do so. We can compare the Moscow to the Shenlong to the Onyx; we can compare the Beijing to the Daemon to the Hercules to the Diamond.

Honestly, the only faction which (in general) is the most difficult to make inter-faction comparisons with is the PHR, simply because of how different their weapon layout is compared to the others. The Shaltari and the Scourge have almost identical hardpoints, and the UCM are only slightly different, but the PHR work on a whole other paradigm.
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J.D. Welch

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Re: New Experimental Rules are up!

PostTue Mar 21, 2017 7:00 am

But it sounds like you're just comparing weapon loadouts, and my point was (which I didn't clarify previously) that you have to look at entire ships holistically, including Armor, Sig, Scan, PD, Hull, the whole nine yards. It becomes a challenging exercise to break all of that down and quantify each one, and the various combinations, and try to draw equivalencies between the factions. In essence, you have to reverse-engineer Dave's (and Andy's) design paradigm, and you're likely never going to get it quite right.

You know why I inow this, on a quantitative level? Because of what Dave told me at the LVO, about Andy and the PHR. If Andy had his way, the PHR ships, broadside weapons in particular, would deal fully half the number of shots that they do now. It was quite a discussion they had about it, but Dave and Simon prevaiked in the end, and even then, as the book is written, we know that broadsides are still insufficient weapon systems.

So, point being, there's a bit of black magic that goes into determining points values for each ship, and overall characteristics of each faction, that we could try to reverse engineer, but would never have the complete picture of why they are what they are.

You see it in Dropzone very clearly -- certain design characteristics (by themselves) are not costed exactly the same across factions. There's a bit of alchemy at work in working out the right points costs, that is also influenced by listbuilding constraints, options and restrictions. This is probably more prevalent and apparant in Dropzone, but the same effect holds true in Dropfleet, I'm sure...

For example, how many points does Launch(4) cost? Is it the same for PHR as it is for Shaltari? I don't think so, because their Bombers and fighters have different stats, so PHR Launch(4) <> Shaltari Launch(4). You just can't break it down to that simple of an equality. Is Scourge Launch = 5/4 Shaltari Launch? Then you have to factor in other things, such as, for a Bellerophon, what is the cost of its BTL, in addition to it having Launch(4)? Is it the same cost as what is applied to a New Cairo, or a Berlin? What about the smaller BTL on the Orpheus? Is it exactly half? But the Orpheus doesn't have Launch, it has Light Calibre Broadsides, which is a different variable than the Belle's Launch ability. You can probably come up with a formula for it, but it's just not worth the exercise. Then you add the other variables, like Hull, Armor, PD, Shields... It's just not apples to apples, that X ship equals Y ship, and so should cost the same...
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Re: New Experimental Rules are up!

PostTue Mar 21, 2017 7:12 am

All very true, and I can't really disagree with you on that. However, it's still possible to draw somewhat meaningful comparisons between factions, taking that all in account. Apples aren't Oranges, but they are both fruit.

However, like you alluded to, these kinds of comparisons are a bit easier in dropfleet rather than dropzone. In dropfleet, every ship basically does one of three things; kill things, get troops on the ground, kill troops on the ground*, and stop things from being killed. There's lots of variability in how ships achieve these objectives, and certain ships excel at certain sub-fields of these goals, but there's less explicit purposes than there is in Dropzone (Scoring, anti-armor, anti-infantry, anti-air, indirect support, etc etc etc)

However, I do believe we've gone a bit tangent from the purpose of the thread! Apologies for that. :)

Back towards the experimental rules, I'm personally very happy to see the changes made to the Shaltari frigates. Now, if we can just get a few points shaved off the Jade, and 2+ lock for the rest of their lances (with those points from the Jade getting stuck on the Ruby, Obsidian, and Granite), I'd be very hardpressed to expand between my UCM and Shaltari!

The Scourge changes are interesting as well, seeing as how they now effectively have two gunfrigates of equal overall firepower. The Scylla feels less of a tangential pick, and more of an outright alternative to the Harpy.

Edit: Forgot bombardment.
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J.D. Welch

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Re: New Experimental Rules are up!

PostTue Mar 21, 2017 7:30 am

Lordprinceps wrote:Apples aren't Oranges, but they are both fruit.

Which is why I didn't use my "Apples to Wingnuts" analogy. :lol:

But, yes, back on track...

I think (actually, I know) that Hawk wants to make some changes/adjustments, observe the result, wash, rinse, repeat. So the change to the Jade is a great start, and based on what they see there will affect whether they make further adjustments to the other ships with Particle weapons.

The Scourge ships I'm not as familiar with, need to look up what the Scylla does again...
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Re: New Experimental Rules are up!

PostTue Mar 21, 2017 7:31 am

Lordprinceps wrote:The Scourge changes are interesting as well, seeing as how they now effectively have two gunfrigates of equal overall firepower. The Scylla feels less of a tangential pick, and more of an outright alternative to the Harpy.


Agreed, and I'm bummed the experimental rules aren't being used at Adepticon because I would have brought Scylla for the first time ever.

Actually kinda bummed about that Adepticon decision, overall. It could have been a massive playtest, with the potential good far outweighing the bad. Hopefully people can still surprise us with some interesting lists. And, for the record, I totally understand and support why they decided not to use the new rules and believe they were sorta put in a no-win position.

J.D. Welch wrote:need to look up what the Scylla does again...


They escape pew from atmo.
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