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Lorns Fan DFC Patch (german space magic in space)

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Lorn

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Lorns Fan DFC Patch (german space magic in space)

PostMon Mar 05, 2018 12:31 pm

As the topic states this is by no means official or has any blessing of TT-Combat (just to avoid confusion) but the following rule and stat changes are some of my ideas and other ideas I quite liked/found to improve the game. With 2 assumptions:
1. There is still some form of Ground Combat.
2. Battlecruisers (BC) and Battleships (BB) upgrade the admiral level.


First off some general explanation, the core idea behind my changes is to improve inter faction balance, overall balance without making ships that currently perform well obsolete. To shorten the gap or ideally bridge it completely but if I was uncertain I was in favour of rather leaving a small gap then simply changing the top ships of a class around. Also currently the wording is currently more RAI then RAW in a few cases this might change though.

Regarding ground combat I personally did not want to fundamentally change the concept but make Troopships more attractive for UCM and Scourge, while giving all factions better means to interact with atmospheric ships. As such Shaltari only received a minor nerf to the intercept abilities which frustrated many players and required nearly no skill from the Shaltari player but nothing else. Also Strike Carriers are unchanged but Corvettes received a major point break making them them a more favourable inclusion for hunting light ships. To prevent them from becoming to strong they have massively reduced damage against bigger ships. So Corvettes are your antidote if you dislike strike carrier spam.

Bombardment is a concept that I find does not work out as well as it should, worst off all bombardment mixed with launch. As this might only be changed by mission design currently all bombardment ships received either point breaks and the ability to bombard sectors with your own troops in it.

Torpedoes are another core mechanic that does not work at all. Mostly as they strike their targets at earliest at T3 and more likely in the T3-5 time frame. Lastly they can be a joke damage wise (in particular against shields) thus they received major buffs and don´t get permanently lost. To compensate they are easier to delay.

Debris fields are a bit more dangerous mostly to avoid Emeralds hiding in them and to make them more of an obstacle.

The last notable change are some Hull changes prime target where the PHR, which had significantly more Hull on Frigates and Battleships (also on Troopships) but insignificant amounts (+1) on all other types. This has been changed, giving them a far more "durable" feel and avoiding some point breaks to rescue the "elite" status, ships that worked well before were given point increases but in other cases the extra Hull seemed fine without any point changes.
Shaltari Battleships gotten the reverse treatment as they and Frigates where the only Shalatri ships with "normal" Hull changing frigates to 3DP was not an option (they are rare anyway) but Battleships lost some DP with more or less compensation for it.



Now to the general changes, I will make separate posts for each faction to give me room for changes and comments. Changes will be coloured red The Centurion and General changes will be here:


General Changes


-Torpedoes receive the Particle Rule and do not count towards the Launch limit, they cannot be removed permanently due to Manoeuvre, but are delayed on a 4+ instead of a 5+.This include light Torpedoes.


-Station keeping in a Debris field causes damage as if moving in it

-Debris fields have 3 attacks instead of 2.

-Ships with the Beast rule may reroll critical damage results (but must take the second result if they choose to do so).

-Voidgate charged air special rule change (p. 197) the to hit values for counting as a "defence battery" are reduces to 6+ for Drop Ships and 6+ for Bulk Landers.

-Vectored allows an extra turn at any point of movement regardless of chosen order.

Centurion Changes removed for now


-Bombardment change, players can fire at sectors containing friendly ground troops. Collateral damage to is destributed as follows 3-6 to enemy troops, 1-2 to friendly troops. If the sector is destroyed friendly units are affected normally.



-Rework of "Atmosperic" weapons with this special rule gain +2 Lock to their lock value if they shoot at targets outside of atmosphere.



-Clarification in regards to gaining spikes while in silent running (other then being active scanned) if a ship in silent running gains a minor spike for any reason it reverts to it´s normal signature, if it would gain a major spike it gains a minor spike instead.



Optional rules:

-Replace the crippling damage table with a d3 roll the result is the number of extra damage resulting from the critical damage. Effects or Cards that let you reroll rolls for Crippling damage apply to the d3 roll.
Last edited by Lorn on Fri May 25, 2018 3:42 pm, edited 8 times in total.

German space magic for PHR would you like to know more?
http://www.hawkforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=7017

German space magic for all and this time it is in Space!
viewtopic.php?f=36&t=10506
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Lorn

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Re: Lorns Fan DFC Patch

PostMon Mar 05, 2018 12:32 pm

UCM


-All Battleships become Sig 8
-Beijing 220P (-32)
-New York 240P (-20)
-Tokyo 195P (-25)

-Atlantis/Johannesburg 180P (-25)

-Moscow 147P (-16)
-St. Petersburg 3 Attacks if only firing 1 BTL.

-Rio 97P (-8)
-Madrid 70P (-9)
-Seattle 122P (-10)
-Osaka 78P (-8)
-New Cairo 90P (+2)
-San Francisco +2 Hull

-Kiev gains Calibre (L)

-Toulon 30P (-5)
-Tapei 35P (-4)
-Jakarta 30P (-2)

-Santiago 17P (-5), G 2-5, All weapons are lock 5+ and Calibre (L)
Last edited by Lorn on Mon Apr 30, 2018 9:24 am, edited 4 times in total.

German space magic for PHR would you like to know more?
http://www.hawkforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=7017

German space magic for all and this time it is in Space!
viewtopic.php?f=36&t=10506
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Lorn

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Re: Lorns Fan DFC Patch

PostMon Mar 05, 2018 12:32 pm

Scourge


-All Battleships become Sig 10
-Daemon 235P (-25), BTL with Lock 4+ is changed to Burnthrough 10 and 5 attacks
-Dragon 255P (-10), BTL with Lock 4+ is changed to Burnthrough 10 and 5 attacks

-Manticore/Banshee 180P (-10)

-Shenlong 167P (-3)
-Raiju 150P (-10)

-Wywern 100P (-5)
-Ifrit 103P (-7)
-Hydra 135P (-5)
-Chimera +2Hull

-All Scourge Destroyers gain the Cloaking crest upgrade at no extra cost unless stated otherwise.
-Succubus 60P (+5): Occulus Beams gain "Atmospheric" and the Occulus Beams gain Calibre L.
-Inccubus: 60P (+5).


-Harpy 35P (-7)
-Charybdis Plasma Bombs receive the "Low Level" rule
-Scylla 38P (-4)

-Nickar 17P (-5), G 2-5, All weapons are lock 5+ and Calibre (L), gains Outliner
Last edited by Lorn on Fri May 25, 2018 3:45 pm, edited 7 times in total.

German space magic for PHR would you like to know more?
http://www.hawkforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=7017

German space magic for all and this time it is in Space!
viewtopic.php?f=36&t=10506
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Lorn

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Re: Lorns Fan DFC Patch

PostMon Mar 05, 2018 12:32 pm

PHR


-All Battleships become Sig 8
-Heracles 265P (-20) Dark Matter Cannon 3 Attacks with 2 Damage each instead of the other way round
-Minos 280P (-5)

-Leonidas/Agamemnon +2Hull
-Scipio/Priam +2Hull

-Hector +2Hull
-Achilles +2Hull
-Bellerophon 195P (+15), +2Hull

-Orpheus 145P (+15), +2Hull
-Ganymede 145P (+10) +2Hull
-Orion 105 (-2), +1Hull
-Ajax 95P (-5), +1Hull
-Perseus 103P (-2), +1Hull
-Ikarus 110P (-5), +1Hull
-Theseus 87P (-2), +1Hull

-Ariadne gains Rare
-Jason gains Stealth and the Kingfisher Drones gain Calibre L.
-Odysseus gains Rare and Stealth

-Pandora 45P (-5)
-Calypso 45P (+8)
-Medea change scrapped
-Andromeda 40P (-2)

-Echo 22P (-8), G 2-5, All weapons are lock 5+ and Calibre (L), loses Stealth.
Last edited by Lorn on Fri May 25, 2018 3:45 pm, edited 11 times in total.

German space magic for PHR would you like to know more?
http://www.hawkforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=7017

German space magic for all and this time it is in Space!
viewtopic.php?f=36&t=10506
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Lorn

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Re: Lorns Fan DFC Patch

PostMon Mar 05, 2018 12:33 pm

Shaltari


-Diamond 285P (-5), -2Hull
-Platinum 255P (-15), -2Hull

-Adamant/Ruby, the Particle Lance pair becomes Lock 2+
-Palladium/Sapphire 170P (-15)

-Onyx 160P (-5)
-Obsidian 160P (+5), the Particle Lances become Lock 2+
-Jet 160P (-5)

-Granite, the Particle Lances become Lock 2+
-Turquoise 110P (-5)
-Basalt 140 (-5)

-Azurite 80P (-5)
-Aquamarine 80P (-5)

-Chromium: Thermal Lance gains Atmospheric


-Jade 37P (-8)
-Opal 45P (+5)
-Amethyst 45P (-3)

-Glass 15P (-3), All weapons are lock 6+ and Calibre (L), gain Beam
Last edited by Lorn on Fri May 25, 2018 3:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.

German space magic for PHR would you like to know more?
http://www.hawkforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=7017

German space magic for all and this time it is in Space!
viewtopic.php?f=36&t=10506
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Shikatanai

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Re: Lorns Fan DFC Patch

PostMon Mar 05, 2018 1:42 pm

We discussed this already but I still feel like just minor cost changes won't fix enough for overcoming the biggest internal balancing issues right now.
I can't go into detail on all of it right now but I also think that some changes are definetly not the right direction.
E.g. giving the Bellerphon and the Orpheus even more hull for a minor point increase especially considering that all other cruisers just get one more hull. Yes the points increase hurts a little but 2 more hull are definetly worth it and I still would not consider taking anything over a Bellerphon or an Orpheus :/

I really like the Debris changes but I guess it will still be a problem especially concerning Shaltari.
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Gauntlet

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Re: Lorns Fan DFC Patch

PostMon Mar 05, 2018 3:10 pm

Just a quick thought... a fix for bombardment might be that you are allowed to bombard enemy units that are occupying the same sector as your own... though if you destroy the sector, you've certainly committed some friendly fire.
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Re: Lorns Fan DFC Patch

PostMon Mar 05, 2018 5:10 pm

As stated. PHR doesnt deal with internal balance problems. Personally I think those will only be solved by giving the broadside only ships Reinforced armour (Fwd). Giving time for them to get into position for the broadside volley without being totally stomped on by things like Burnthrough lasers, Occulus beams etc.
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Lorn

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Re: Lorns Fan DFC Patch

PostMon Mar 05, 2018 6:11 pm

Shikatanai wrote:E.g. giving the Bellerphon and the Orpheus even more hull for a minor point increase especially considering that all other cruisers just get one more hull.


Selective reading? All ships are getting Hull in accordance to their class, we can debate the Bellerophon point cost but please don´t make stuff up. It is rather simple:

-Light Cruisers and Cruisers get +1 Hull for a total of 10/12 (+2 compared to UCM/Scourge)
-Heavy Cruisers, Troopships and Battlecruisers get +2 Hull for a total of 15/15/17 (+3 compared to UCM/Scourge)

I get that you think that the +15P for the Bell and the Orpheus are not enough. So may I ask what do you think is appropriate for +2 Hull? For +15% Hull we have a 8,33% and 11,54% increase in cost. But feel free to take your time for an elaborate answer since it only partially is what we discussed and already disagreed over.


Gauntlet wrote:Just a quick thought... a fix for bombardment might be that you are allowed to bombard enemy units that are occupying the same sector as your own... though if you destroy the sector, you've certainly committed some friendly fire.


Will try that or something along those lines in the next test game. It would certainly help for the PHR ships and make it possible to make those more expansive again. Maybe a slighter increase for the others.

German space magic for PHR would you like to know more?
http://www.hawkforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=7017

German space magic for all and this time it is in Space!
viewtopic.php?f=36&t=10506
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Lordprinceps

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Re: Lorns Fan DFC Patch

PostMon Mar 05, 2018 7:35 pm

I disagree with the idea that PHR ships need to be even tougher; they're already tougher than anything else, and they're no so expensive that a lesser number of ships warrants it. Rather, the issue comes down to broadsides just not being all that powerful.

On the average, symmetrical across 3+, 4+, and 5+ armor targets, cruiser-level main weapons will do approximately 2 damage per firing. This is true for the UCM's 6400's, for the Scourge's Occulus Array, and for the Shaltari's Disintegrator battery.

The closest PHR equivalent to this is their ship's full broadside.
For the medium caliber broadside, the average is about 2.66
For the light broadside against non-light targets, it's 2.00
Against light targets, 4.00
For the heavy broadside against non-heavy/super targets, 2.33
Against heavy-super targets, 3.00

While this initially looks good on paper at first, the PHR do more damage per firing than any other faction, anyone experienced with the game knows that this is fundamentally flawed. Beyond the issues of actually gettings broadsides into arcs against targets, and the excessive efficiency of PHR non-broadside reliant ships, individual PHR ships massively lack in single-target damage on weapons free against targets compared to other factions.
While on the scale of bigger games where multiple PHR ships can combine fire and there's likely to be targets in both side arcs, on the scale of the usual games (and in general, even), there's likely going to be wasted damage potential from multiple PHR ships, lessening their effectiveness over all. This, coupled with how hard it is to get enemy ships in arc while still moving for the objectives, makes broadsides a poor choice compared to more flexible ships.

The problem doesn't come from PHR ships not being tough enough; they already are tougher, and if there were to be an increase in hull like Lorn suggests, I'd definitely argue that it shouldn't be stacked with a points decrease as well. PHR ships don't have trouble surviving long enough to do their damage, they have trouble doing damage in the first place.

The problem comes from those two facts above; it's hard to bring broadsides to bare in this style of game, and the single-target damage of PHR ships is massively lacking.
To fix this, I think the solution is simply to improve their broadsides, but I've had a bit of an unusual idea. Rather than having caliber improve the lock value of the weapons, instead change it to the following:
Caliber(X): Against a target of X tonnage, increase this weapon's damage by 1.
Likewise, get rid of the special extra rule for Caliber(H/S)

And couple that with the following stat changes:
Medium Caliber Broadside: 3+ lock, 6 attack, 1 damage
Light Caliber Broadside: 4+ lock, 6 attack, 1 damage, caliber(L)
Heavy Caliber Broadside: 3+ lock, 4 attack, 1 damage, caliber(H/S)

Additionally, for the sake of completeness, here are the other weapon systems (batteries/cannonades excluded, since they're just 0.5/1.5 times a broadside))
Medium Caliber Bank: 3+ lock, 2 attack, 1 damage
Medium Caliber Turret: 3+ lock, 1 attack, 1 damage

This changes the expected damage (once again symmetric over 3+, 4+, and 5+ armor) to the following:
Medium broadside: 3.00
Light broadside against non-light: 2.00
Light broadside against light: 4.00
Heavy broadside against non-heavy/super: 2.00
Heavy broadside against heavy/super: 4.00

You'll note that the light broadside damage doesn't change in either case, and heavy broadside against non-heavy/super actually gets worse, but there are multiple benefits to this:
A medium broadside now does straight up 50% more damage than other race's equivalent main weapons, as well as being 25% less than their combined main weapons on weapons free.
Light broadsides are now more useful against non-light targets which are more likely to have 3+ and 4+ armor, which impacts 5+ lock far more than 4+ lock.
The change to light broadsides now means they're less effective as ad-hoc bombardment (due to their previous high ouput of dice), giving an impetus to improve the Medea and Ganymede.
Heavy broadsides against heavy/super targets now match UCM, Scourge, and Shaltari main WF damage against their preferred targets, same as light broadsides.

Broadsides still have the same issues of actually getting to bare on enemy ships, but now they're no longer impotent when it comes to doing damage, massively improved on single-target damage on standard orders, and their standard weapon (medium broadside) is almost in the same league as WF damage.

TL;DR: Make broadsides better and more damaging, rather than making PHR ships tougher. Increase the reward, don't decrease the risk.
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