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Voidgates on CLs

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Major Awesome

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Voidgates on CLs

PostSun Mar 19, 2017 9:55 pm

Hey Hawk, thank you for the new experimental rules! I love them!

I was wondering if it was intended that Shaltari lose out on using Voidgates to score Critical Locations? That seems like a pretty drastic reduction in Shaltari scoring potential.

In almost every game we play in my area there is a Turn 4/6 rise of strike carriers to help claim Critical Locations. They tip the balance when each player otherwise has the same tonnage in space, OR they flat-out claim CLs when they are the only ships around. There's also a calculation we all do to see how many tokens we need to drop that turn to win/contest, versus how many strike carriers we rise up to score the CL. If Shaltari lose out on these options, it seems excessive.

Just wondering if this was intended. Thanks!
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Tauwolf

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Re: Voidgates on CLs

PostMon Mar 20, 2017 2:19 am

Sorry, Major, but I'm fairly certain that change was made *specifically* to cause Shaltari players to bring more balanced lists. If it ends up hurting Shaltari too much I'm sure they'll take another look at it.

But, players can't just keep bringing the same spammy lists and claim "This rule hurts!" Yeah, it was supposed to! The only playtesting that can give us good data is if players embrace the change and adapt their lists accordingly.
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Major Awesome

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Re: Voidgates on CLs

PostMon Mar 20, 2017 4:47 am

I don't see Voidgate spam winning events or terrorizing battle reports, can you point me to those lists or copy some for me please? Unless mothership-gate ratio around 1:3 or 1:4 is "spammy" because to me that seems fairly standard. 1:4 or less is about where I see most lists on the forum and Facebook, with about 3-4 motherships (at 1250).

Glass spam, yes, that was a big problem which is appropriately nailed down now. I'm just talking about the strike carrier equivalent for the faction.
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Tauwolf

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Re: Voidgates on CLs

PostMon Mar 20, 2017 5:51 am

Do some unbiased playtesting, report the results. If things look like they need to be addressed, I'm certain they will be.
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Nobody

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Re: Voidgates on CLs

PostTue Mar 21, 2017 4:32 am

Major Awesome wrote:I don't see Voidgate spam winning events or terrorizing battle reports, can you point me to those lists or copy some for me please? Unless mothership-gate ratio around 1:3 or 1:4 is "spammy" because to me that seems fairly standard. 1:4 or less is about where I see most lists on the forum and Facebook, with about 3-4 motherships (at 1250).

Glass spam, yes, that was a big problem which is appropriately nailed down now. I'm just talking about the strike carrier equivalent for the faction.


I think somebody made the observation (may have been you actually) that when they saw Hawk employees working on their fleets at events they were using a much lighter Strike Carrier/Troopship balance than was expected, so it's quite likely they never intended on a 1:4 ratio for motherships:gates.
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Re: Voidgates on CLs

PostTue Mar 21, 2017 8:21 am

Didnt VG spam win GenCon? Or the LVO? one of the big ones anyway, i froget....all those US events blend together :(

Anyway, yes, VG spam can and is winning major tournaments. As a Shaltari player almost exclusively....this actually pleases me. One of the main problems i have with the game is that it overly encourages mass spamming of VG's/Strike Carriers.

I just wish they had done the same to Strike Carriers too tbh.
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J.D. Welch

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Re: Voidgates on CLs

PostThu Mar 23, 2017 2:53 am

Skinwalker wrote:Didnt VG spam win GenCon? Or the LVO? one of the big ones anyway, i froget....all those US events blend together :(

Anyway, yes, VG spam can and is winning major tournaments. As a Shaltari player almost exclusively....this actually pleases me. One of the main problems i have with the game is that it overly encourages mass spamming of VG's/Strike Carriers.

I just wish they had done the same to Strike Carriers too tbh.

I wouldn't call it "Voidgate spam", it was the 1:4 ratio of Emeralds to VGs that Major Awesome described, might even have been a bit lower than that, 1:3.5 or something, but I think that that is the correct ratio for Motherships:Voidgates.

But, yes, it was the LVO, and Shaltari came in 1st and 2nd, with similar ratios...
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illrede

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Re: Voidgates on CLs

PostThu Mar 23, 2017 5:28 am

J.D. Welch wrote:
Skinwalker wrote:Didnt VG spam win GenCon? Or the LVO? one of the big ones anyway, i froget....all those US events blend together :(

Anyway, yes, VG spam can and is winning major tournaments. As a Shaltari player almost exclusively....this actually pleases me. One of the main problems i have with the game is that it overly encourages mass spamming of VG's/Strike Carriers.

I just wish they had done the same to Strike Carriers too tbh.

I wouldn't call it "Voidgate spam", it was the 1:4 ratio of Emeralds to VGs that Major Awesome described, might even have been a bit lower than that, 1:3.5 or something, but I think that that is the correct ratio for Motherships:Voidgates.

But, yes, it was the LVO, and Shaltari came in 1st and 2nd, with similar ratios...


I've started playing a little Shaltari just to have an opfor (I'm PHR). 1 to 6 hit me as safe and sane (with one mothership). VGs are easy to get destroyed. An Emerald is easy to protect. An Emerald with less than 3 VGs to use is sufficiantly annoying that you regret not paying for a larger margin. Spam isn't quite the word from that POV.
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Re: Voidgates on CLs

PostThu Mar 23, 2017 7:47 am

I agree 1:3 and maybe 1:4 doesn't make it spame alone. But when that leads to 12-16 VG's, it's spam in my mind. I'm not even saying thats a bad thing....everyone has their own viws on that.
its not all about the ratio ;)

Regardless, the question is whether this change will cause any major list changes. It actually might not, since CL's are so unimportant to victory in many scenarios compared to winning the ground battle.
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Re: Voidgates on CLs

PostThu Mar 23, 2017 8:25 am

Skinwalker wrote:I agree 1:3 and maybe 1:4 doesn't make it spame alone. But when that leads to 12-16 VG's, it's spam in my mind. I'm not even saying thats a bad thing....everyone has their own viws on that.
its not all about the ratio ;)

Regardless, the question is whether this change will cause any major list changes. It actually might not, since CL's are so unimportant to victory in many scenarios compared to winning the ground battle.



I agree and have argued this point at some length elsewhere on the forum. As a Shaltari player, I actually like this change but fear it will make little difference though because you can largely ignore CLs and concentrate on sectors to win.
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