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UCM light cruisers: decent? awesome?

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Dvalin

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Re: UCM light cruisers: decent? awesome?

PostTue Jul 25, 2017 4:53 pm

BTL-wise, has anyone done the math on probable damage from those weapons? I know how to run it, but the fiddliness with dependent rolls and inherited criticals would make it an ugly exercise in brute force. ;p

That said, it sounds like folk like the Toulons...? Any particular reason? The speed looks handy, and they're cheap, but the 4+ weapons don't seem amazing. Is it just a longer-ranged swarm approach to things?
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wundergoat

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Re: UCM light cruisers: decent? awesome?

PostTue Jul 25, 2017 5:48 pm

Three 4+ shots are roughly equivalent to two 3+ shots, so 2 Toulon have the gun firepower of an Osaka. They have smaller sigs as well and more CAW, though the Osaka is tougher is a lot of ways.

Somewhere on this forum there is a lot of discussion about lasers vs guns with the math and expected damage. Suffice to say, cobra lasers are much more powerful than mass drivers.
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Lorn

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Re: UCM light cruisers: decent? awesome?

PostTue Jul 25, 2017 6:22 pm

wundergoat wrote:Somewhere on this forum there is a lot of discussion about lasers vs guns with the math and expected damage. Suffice to say, cobra lasers are much more powerful than mass drivers.


To add to this, the BTL have a high tendency to crit meaning armour is not a good form of protection against them. In general BTL deal more damage on average but among the most likely results for a BTL shot are 1 Hit or 1 Crit which is little damage so in short they tend to extremes.

Against Shields or if modifiers to the shot apply the usefulness of the BTL decreases at a greater rate then that of Mass Drivers though the average damage against shields is still slightly higher.

As a result some (including myself) think that the Mass Drivers do not deal enough damage compared to the BTLs in particular in ships that are not dependant on the Weapons Free order and can use other orders thus greatly reducing the liability of the limited arc.

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Shikatanai

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Re: UCM light cruisers: decent? awesome?

PostTue Jul 25, 2017 6:46 pm

Lorn wrote:
wundergoat wrote:Somewhere on this forum there is a lot of discussion about lasers vs guns with the math and expected damage. Suffice to say, cobra lasers are much more powerful than mass drivers.


To add to this, the BTL have a high tendency to crit meaning armour is not a good form of protection against them. In general BTL deal more damage on average but among the most likely results for a BTL shot are 1 Hit or 1 Crit which is little damage so in short they tend to extremes.

Against Shields or if modifiers to the shot apply the usefulness of the BTL decreases at a greater rate then that of Mass Drivers though the average damage against shields is still slightly higher.

As a result some (including myself) think that the Mass Drivers do not deal enough damage compared to the BTLs in particular in ships that are not dependant on the Weapons Free order and can use other orders thus greatly reducing the liability of the limited arc.


Agree. However I think a cost reduction for Massdriver Ships would be the best way to address this issue.
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Re: UCM light cruisers: decent? awesome?

PostTue Jul 25, 2017 7:47 pm

I think disabling guns on a course change would be a good change.

As it stands, the order allows players to recover bad positioning too easily.
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Shikatanai

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Re: UCM light cruisers: decent? awesome?

PostTue Jul 25, 2017 8:05 pm

I think completely disabeling guns on course change is too harsh. I'd rather build in a lock penalty if you want to change anything...
However I don't think it would help much as one turn is usually enough to get in your targets in early rounds if you don't do massive movement mistakes while when your opponent is getting close station keeping is most of the time they way to keep your arcs in especially on fast ships.
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Red Pendrigh

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Re: UCM light cruisers: decent? awesome?

PostTue Jul 25, 2017 8:07 pm

Mean damage output for the 6400 mass drivers is 2.7, and 2.8 for the cobra.
The cobra obviously has a 50% increase in maximum possible damage output, but a 1,100% increase in chance of failure to hit anything.
6400s have a 270 degree fire arc whilst the cobra has a 22.5 degree fire arc.
Personally I'm not convinced the cobra is the no-brainer it's often made out to be, I've seen it become a liability rather quickly vs. a player who knows what they're doing as you have a blind spot of around 150 degrees.
Last edited by Red Pendrigh on Tue Jul 25, 2017 8:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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wundergoat

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Re: UCM light cruisers: decent? awesome?

PostTue Jul 25, 2017 8:20 pm

Red Pendrigh wrote:Mean damage output for the 6400 mass drivers is 2.7, and 2.8 for the cobra.
The cobra obviously has a 50% increase in maximum possible damage output, but a 110% increase in chance of failure to hit anything.
6400s have a 270 degree fire arc whilst the cobra has a 22.5 degree fire arc.
Personally I'm not convinced the cobra is the no-brainer it's often made out to be, I've seen it become a liability rather quickly vs. a player who knows what they're doing.


The cobra does a lot more critical damage, so more of the damage gets past saves. Considering how good the armor is on most ships, this drastically improves the relative performance of lasers. Fire arc isn't a big deal either as usually 45 degree turns are enough to get the cobra on target.
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Red Pendrigh

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Re: UCM light cruisers: decent? awesome?

PostTue Jul 25, 2017 8:25 pm

Fairly simple for an experienced player to draw the ship one way then hit from behind.
Not a weapon for the centre of the line, it will also struggle if you have to manouvre around debris.
Against shaltari the criticals aren't much cop and if they bring gravity coils you may as well start packing up.
Last edited by Red Pendrigh on Tue Jul 25, 2017 8:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Shikatanai

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Re: UCM light cruisers: decent? awesome?

PostTue Jul 25, 2017 8:45 pm

Red Pendrigh wrote:Fairly simple for an experienced player to draw the ship one way then hit from behind.
Not a weapon for the centre of the line.
Against shaltari the criticals aren't much cop and if they bring gravity coils you may as well start packing up.


If the Ship does its damage on a key target it does not matter if it gets hit from somewhere else. If a player is dumb enough to fall for some sacrifical lamb it's just a mistake.
Yes BTL are not nearly as good against Shaltari but to be honest I would still be glad for any gravity coil weapon the Shaltari is fielding instead of Desintegrators...
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