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Soooo, the Centurion

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Lordprinceps

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Re: Soooo, the Centurion

PostTue Jan 30, 2018 7:38 pm

Eh, as far as single target max damage goes on standard orders, you're going to be using the turret no matter what. Taking away linked just takes away the one reason anyone would ever use the broadsides on standard orders, which is possibly getting a double broadside off on some targets. The broadsides aren't an issue, and neither is them being 3x as strong a single 4200 turret since they're locked into the side arcs.

The main issues with it at its current level is that it's too tough and too cheap, the firepower, while good, isn't overhwelming for a heavy-cruiser tier stat block.
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alchahest

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Re: Soooo, the Centurion

PostFri Mar 09, 2018 4:45 am

I'm hoping it, or something that shares it's profile, is available later - my pals getting into the game love the look and are sore they can't get one.
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Mediocrates

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Re: Soooo, the Centurion

PostFri Mar 09, 2018 7:00 pm

During the TT Combat webcast today, it was announced that the Centurion was tweaked - It's now significantly more expensive at 160 points (both versions), and is also now Heavy tonnage (though it still has G 1-2). Updated PDF:https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0965/1274/files/Centurion_Class_Cruiser.pdf?16721152841810911257.

Thoughts on how these changes affect the balance issues?
Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a vulgar brawl.
- Frederick II of Prussia (Ostensibly)
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Lordprinceps

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Re: Soooo, the Centurion

PostFri Mar 09, 2018 9:19 pm

A bit too far in the other direction, I think. The three main changes are:
125 to 160 points.
3+ lock, 2 attack, 3 damage, bloom main gun to 2+ lock, 2 attack, 1 damage, fusillade 2
Addition of ceramic armor rule.

Each on their own is a fine change, but all together they drastically nerf the centurion. I heavily agree with the ceramic armor change, but as for the other two:

The change to the main gun makes it too weak in my opinion; on weapons free, single target damage is at max around 4.667 damage; heavily outclassed by the moscow, shenlong, and onyx even on weapons free similar to how it was before the change, but now the main gun is actually drastically less powerful than its broadside on standard orders.
A better change, sticking with 2+ lock, would just be 2 attack, 2 damage, with no fusillade. It results in much improved standard orders firepower, but not quite as good as it was previously with 3+ lock, 2 attack, and 3 damage, while still maintaining it's current single target damage on weapons free.
As for points, with the change to the gun I described above, 160 would be fine. Without the change, keeping the gun as it is now, I'd say that 150 would be better.
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wundergoat

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Re: Soooo, the Centurion

PostFri Mar 09, 2018 9:58 pm

At the old stats, 160pts would have been fine. The new stat line isn’t worth the old 125pts. This is pretty much trash now.
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Nicius

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Re: Soooo, the Centurion

PostFri Mar 09, 2018 10:00 pm

Dunno about the changes but I am glad it is nerfed from the last version since it was a bit to good and a limited model.

Without running the statistics, shouldn't it equal the damage output of a Moscow on weapons free?
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Nobody

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Re: Soooo, the Centurion

PostFri Mar 09, 2018 10:02 pm

I kinda feel that the price change, gun change, and move to heavy would have been enough, I think the Ceramic armor rule will relegate it into a skill tester ship for competitive play in that a single crippling hit means it gets an armor cracked result on top of whatever other crippling damage it takes.
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wundergoat

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Re: Soooo, the Centurion

PostFri Mar 09, 2018 10:17 pm

The old gun was fine. It was a turreted cobra with bloom, and the fact that it made people’s jaws drop without actually being a game changer showed off just how excellent an exploration of design space it was.
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Lordprinceps

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Re: Soooo, the Centurion

PostSat Mar 10, 2018 1:08 am

@Nicius.

Currently, on the average, the Centurion can put out 2.00 damage from each of its broadsides and 1.33 from its main gun, 2.67 on weapons free, for a total damage output of 6.67 damage and a maximum single target damage of 4.67.
Previously it could put out a total of 7.00 damage and a maximum single target damage of 5.00.
The Moscow can put out a total of 5.33 damage on weapons free, with a single target damage of 5.33.
6.00 total and 6.00 single target on both the Shenlong and Amber.

These are fairly reasonable stats for a hybrid broadside ship, at least in terms of damage output, but the problem comes on standard orders. Previously, the Centurion could put out 3.00 damage from its main gun (at the cost of bloom), which was pretty hefty for something with that wide of an arc. Now, however, the gun only does 1.33 damage on standard orders. The fact that it can't actually do more single target damage on standard orders than other heavy cruisers can, coupled with the fact that it's beaten out on weapon free single target damage too, is what makes this nerf hurt so much. Even the Hector can do more damage on standard orders against a single target than any of the other gun cruisers, and the Hector is notably disliked (at least in my experience), which doesn't bode well for the Centurion.

@wundergoat
That's the thing, it was pretty much a turreted cobra. I could see it being acceptable as it was with the ceramic armor rule; 2+ armor can shrug off quite a bit and you don't need to worry about taking damage, but 4+ would make taking spikes incredibly dangerous.

There a lot of ways the Centurion could have been tweaked, but making these three changes simultaneously is definitely too much; it's closer to balanced than it was before, at the least.
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Nicius

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Re: Soooo, the Centurion

PostSat Mar 10, 2018 9:51 am

@Lord princeps. Thanks for the math. Guess my estimate was slightly off yesterday. I had a lengthy discussion with my regular PHR opponent about the Centurion. We compared it to most of the heavy UCM and PHR cruiser.
For PHR it is still a nice option due to the decent turret. Allthough fireing it makes its visible for every burn through ship arround.
For UCM it is roughly equivalent to a Moscow, only I don't tend to use Moscow's.

I will test it out next time we play dropfleet to see how it perform but I have the feeling it has been hit a bit to hard with the nerfs. Also dislike the added special ruls.
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